What a crock! - Page 2

Like Dan, I say if you want religion in your school, choose a religious based school. We chose private indpendent school, since public schools are doing everything but educating our children.

I do think it is sad that a lot of people do not have "God" to beleive in. I include myself in that number.

Annie was saying about the Money "In god we trust" and someone else the Pledge of Allegience "One nation under God" - course we now know that that to has been removed - whenever I come across that particular expression as in NZ national anthem "God of nations" I always think of "God" as an abstract Ideal.

God means different things to everybody, even in the same church, probably even in the same family. If we could all agree that the "concept of God" is an ideal we should all strive to attain then the debate would go away.

In trying to live up to "god", we should treat everyone as we would wish to be treated, and would try to be a better person tomorrow than we are today. That is all, and when you break down the bible and the koran and all the other holy books they all say they very same thing, except that each one offers "God's" help to do these things, and of course if you beleive in God and do certain things you will get to go to Heaven, Nirvana and various other versions of a really neat place to live after death.

But if every single person treated everyone as s/he wished to be treated, and tried to be a better person tomorrow than s/he was today, we would have that promised paradise here on earth.

I haven't really kept up with this debate, but what a beautiful thing to say Maree! You are so right. The world would be a much better place if only people would treat other how they would like to be treated.

Now, I have read what everyone has to say on this subject, I agree with you Megan. I have talked to my mother in depth about this subject. Before the 1950s, "under God" and "in God we trust" where not part of the pledge or printed on our money. I think it is very popular to say you are a Christian and pout about the 10 commandments and the pledge - rather than actually be one. The outward show of being a Christian has become more important than the inward spirit. If love you God deeply in your heart, then let your actions show it as well as your words.

I have been told and told that it says are Forefathers were rasied Christian and that is were we get the sayings, That is how they related things when America was being shaped.

It might be true that the 1950's did not have this, I do not know I was not born yet, but I am sure where they got this information wasn't just a thought let's just do that. I am sure they had to have information backing them up. I know I could be wrong and it is something I need to search or anyone search the information. Again this is just my opinion.

Maree what a beautiful thought, it would be so nice if the dream would come true.

I think I am riding the fence on this one for now.I agree that the ten commandments shouldn't be taught in public schools unless they bring a teacher of religion and then had a sign up for the class,but I also believe that the schools that have these stones that were gifted to them shouldn't be made to get rid of them.
But maybe a less prominent display of them would be accepted?

That is really interesting Meagan, I love finding out these things so thank you very much for finding it.

It seems the whole "in god we trust" theme was politically motivated on the surface, but I think it would not have gone ahead if the majority of the country 'at the time' did not support it.

However the 50's were (compared with today) an age of innocence and it seems to me - by the way this is not my history please correct me if I am wrong - that in the 50's it was not so much "do you go to church?" as " which church do you attend?".

Everybody went to church and almost everybody was nominally Christian, whether they were Greek Orthodox, Catholic, Baptist, Episcipalian or another flavour there was a basic agreement on the elements of christianity, The virgin Mary, the holy Trinity, Jesus as the son of God these are all common to all Christian Religions, albiet with different levels of Importance.

That has now changed, not only do so many people not go to church, A lot of people that do follow a religion go to a Mosque, Temple, Wiccan Circle or a Synagogue (please forgive my spelling, it is unintentional and not intended to be offensive)

Maybe it is time to cut all religions out of all state schools in any form, but I feel that the world will be a sadder place for it - and no I do not go to church either, nor did my parents, or my grandparents.

Thanks Meagan for the information that helps a lot. Now I know how the Pledge was said befor they put "Under God " in it. Sounds fine but sounds funny too, because I am not use to it.

I agree with Maree I think the world would be a sadder place by changing things. I guess it will never change me and my family values if they take all religion out of public schools. I look at it this way. Some of us have a hero or a mentor to look up to. I feel God is one of those to protect us in such a messed up world. I know I have never seen him and that is okay in my heart I feel better talking to him when I need him. I understand now what they are trying to say but it makes me very sad and I have to remember that it will never change the way I feel. I do not want to punish anyone. In the end though doesn't matter which way we go it won't be fair to the other. It is a no win situation.

Thanks again Meagan for getting the information and Maree for a person that does not attend church (Which I do not either anymore) you sure do know a lot. (applause) May I ask a question because I get mix signals and you can email me the answer if you prefer. Do you believe in God or something?

It is all about interpretation:
We have different 'flavors' of Christians over how we each interpret the bible...as well as different religions who use other manuscripts and beliefs...
We read the 'Declaration of Independence' and the 'Bill of Rights' and we have lawyers to argue each persons interpretation of them...
It is a constant struggle to maintain the fine line of not offending ANYONE but since this would be utterly impossible, this country was set up to go by majority yet first one thing then another is torn down because one voice is raised and there are none to drown it out...
Yes the state should not condone one religion over another ( tho I want to say listen but I would offend because I believe some are wrong... but I must not; thus it is a problem for me... )
but a person cannot rip out that teaching and leave it at the door... they use it, ideally, to rule their actions... alas some parents take no responsibility for their kids... or it was where their from or who they grew up with. . .
As for me... I like my money and the pledge the way it is.

Cheryl me too.

Annie, yes I believe in a purpose to the Universe and God is as good a name as any for it. I do not believe in organised religions for many, many reasons.

I went to Sunday School for about a year when I was 7 because it was 8 houses down the road and my Mum and Dad liked the peace and quiet . While I was there I won a blible for attendance. When I was 11 I ran out of books to read so I started on the bible, I got thru the Old Testament and started on the new, but then I got bored I guess and stopped reading it.

It is not possible to live in this world and not absorb some knowledge of different religions, I am a voracious reader and I have a packrat mind, so I forget very little. I am also nosy and hate not to know things. LOL

My children have been free to make up their own minds, My eldest started attending the Church of the Latter Day Saints (Morman Church) at 10 and at 11 was baptised into the faith, bc I do not share his faith does not mean I was not happy he had found his own. The other 2 are 10 and as yet have shown no desire to go to Sunday School/church however when they do we will take them, how else are they to learn and make up their own minds.

I do not condemn any religion (except those that promote hate) bc everyone of them is trying to do good. I also believe that the afterlife is there but that there is more than one ladder to climb. I think the path to heaven is like a mountain, there are many trails but they all lead up.

If you are confused it is probably bc if I know someone does have faith I will tell them that I hope their faith sustains them. What you will never see me do is offer to pray for someone, bc by my moral standards that would be wrong, I do not lie to people, particularly about something as personally as important to so many people as their faith.

Is that what you wanted to know or did I once again write a book when a line would have done

No you did good and I do understand. Thank you for sharing and sorry to be so nosey. I to am like a sponge I like to know what is going on and I listen carefully as I can(Because of my hearing problem)Read the lips even when I am not part of the conversation, that is just me. I like to be aware and on my toes. Thanks again.

Well said, Maree and Angela!

Our country was founded on Christian beliefs. We have an awful lot of work to do to erase that- but the ACLU is surely working their hardest. I don't think the Ten Commandments in school is really the issue. It is just one tiny aspect. I will be homeschooling my kids because I don't want them taught the social ideals of our school system or even of a Christian school. I am a Christian - I love Jesus and I want my kids to know him and know he is part of every subject to be taught. I have no fear of them learning about other religions- I myself am interested- the more I learn the more certain I am of my faith. I want my kids to know why they believe what they believe and be able to share that with others. I do believe in our schools today we are trying to teach tolerance by teaching about other religions specifically Islam right now. That is fine except we can't teach about our own founding fathers religion??? All references to God and even George washington being a strong christian is taken out of our history books- what are we afraid of? Like I said in another post I believe we are in the process of making a new country based on our tolerances and truths- Take God out of things and look around you- the world just seems to be getting better and better - more moral and safe every day- ACLU keep up the good work!! obviously being sarcastic!

I think most of us misunderstand the term 'seperation of Church & State'. I looked it up and came up with this:

No Federal Statute or Presidential Directive states that there MUST be a "separation of church and state". Thomas Jefferson (in his oft mis-quoted discertation on the subject) did NOT state that there was or should be such a separation, but that there was a "wall" which the government could not breach. In none of the writings of any of the framers of the US constitution was the concept that religious institutions should have no right to publicly
influence society (and hence government) found.

THAT concept is only found in three places (presented in order of chronological origin):

1) The Constitution of the UNION OF SOVIET SOCIALIST REPUBLICS
2) The Humanist Manifesto
3) (Warren Burger & later) Federal Court precedent setting decisions

Then I found a *great* website at:

http://park.org/Guests/Educate/HTALK/church.htm

titled: The Fallacy of Seperation Of Church And State

You'll want to check it out if you're interested- there's way too much to post here. But I think it's just plain crap that the 10 commandments can't be posted in schools- and that they can't have prayers before graduation, ballgames, etc. There's nothing offensive about the 10 commandments- they are a moral code that ought to be taught to all children and practiced by everyone. We'd all be a lot better off if we followed them- and I can't see any harm that could come from following them, learning them, or even looking at them. (Is someone offended by "Thou Shalt Not Kill"? Or how about, "Honor Thy Parents"? Or "Thou Shalt Not Steal"?) That's not imposing religion on anyone- it's trying to impose morals and values on them, which they cleary desperately need!

AngC thanks for the information, that was real good.

I guess it is the language that I have a problem with. I also have a problem with some of the 10 commandments: the thou shalt not commit adultry, thou shalt not covet your neighbor's house, neighbor's, wife, or his manservant, or maidservant, his ox or his donkey...etc. If it could be "cleaned up" and put into modern language then I would not have a problme with it being displayed. But I think that those two commandments would not make sense to a 6 year old! JMHO

Meagan- I forget that other religions don't teach their children from early on to read their scriptures using that language. In our Church even small ones know what "Thee" and "Thou" and "Shalt" means and they read them aloud that way. We also explain the rest of the words ('covet', for example) so it's not an issue. I also only read the KJV of the bible because I personally dislike the language being cleaned up and modernized. I'm smart enough to understand it the way it is and I figure children are too if they're taught it that way. JMO though!

Also I have not seen the item in question, but I was wondering: Was it posted at an elementary school? Or how old were the kids that saw it? And did they actually read it when they walked by, or ignore it because they were busy talking to their friends or late for class?? I'm thinking it was an adult who opposed it being there- not the children. (more wonderings): If they were too young to understand it, what difference does it make if it was posted there? And was it even written with Thee's and Thou's?

Ahhh the complex thoughts that occupy my mind

By the way Meagan- I would like to state for the record that I frequently HAVE NO COOTH. I don't mean it to sound like an attack on you personally- I just write exactly what's in my head, the way it sounds in my head. Please don't take it personally!!

Oh I didn't! The reasons you gave were very good, but not all of us are bringing our children up the same way.

It's sad that some want to take God away but filth and immorality is okay. Condoms are okay but not prayer. Sheesh. It's getting hard to raise children in today's society.