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melizerd 09-22-2007 10:42 AM

I found pictures of Swedish kids Rearfacing and the seats there are so much better for extended rearfacing (since they're kids rearface til 4 or 5)

http://www.nybaktmamma.com/plassen/s...d.php?t=524428

I wish we had seats like that. Then I wouldn't have to listen to people tell me that I already should have turned Gabe because he's "so big". He's not even the MINIMUM year for forward facing and no way am I turning him at a year. With the information about it out there I'm just not doing it.

So I was quite amused to see much older kids rearfacing in a country where less then 1 child a year in a rear facing seat in an accident. Too bad our laws suck.

teacherinct 09-22-2007 05:11 PM

What concerns me is the complete lack of chest clips on 90% of those pics. Interesting that Britax even makes seats (foreign) w/out chest clips. And some of those kids looked over the seat weight limits for installs with a seat belt. KWIM? I wonder how many of them are in seats recomended for use with those weights. The graco ones in particular.

I'm all for safe seats, you know I only use Britax.

melizerd 09-22-2007 09:14 PM

Chest clips are only a US/Canada thing.

If you call the US britax they will tell you that a chest clip is a precrash positioner and that you don't need to use it even on your US seats.

The aftermarket products I could do with out

ALL the children in those seats are in the recommended weights for their installation. Most carseat manufacturers make seats in several markets. I know the person I got it from and they are Swedish. If you like I can post stock pictures of a few of the seats that are used in those seats.

melizerd 09-22-2007 09:17 PM

In Sweden, children go straight from rear-facing seats to booster seats! Because kids sit rear-facing for so long, fewer than 1 child a year dies in a rear-facing car seat in Sweden.

Elaine 09-22-2007 10:36 PM

It's obviously just because it's not what I'm used to seeing but it seems awkward to me... and their feet sure look uncomfortable.

ryann2 09-22-2007 10:51 PM

What about the kid rear facing in the FRONT seat? She didn't look more than 2 or 3 years old....

teacherinct 09-22-2007 11:35 PM

You don't need a chest clip? IMO that's crazy even if Britax says it's ok. My 17 month old would be out of his Britax in about 2 minutes if it didn't have a chest clip. What keeps the child from flying out from between the straps in a collision? Not to mention if the child is like mine--tall and thin and very active. He'd slip the staps off his shoulders and be out no matter how tight I made them.

The fact that Sweden has 1 child fatality per year is great but not a fair comparison with US statistics. I don't know for sure but I've got to guess that the US has more cars on the road, more children in cars, more people travelling longer distances by car, etc. Not to mention that the US has a ton of cheap, poorly made booster type seats on the market which people buy and use not knowing any better.

The pics of the kids without the chest clips makes me cringe. It just looks so unsafe. Especially with the children being so tall. It seems like their whole upper body is essentially unrestained with the exception of their shoulders (which are quite narrow in children).

melizerd 09-22-2007 11:44 PM

all the kids are properly restrained. Supposedly the coats are okay'd there too. I'm assuming it's a difference in the harness.

I've been told the harnesses are different then ours and that tightened down that they don't come off easy. I'm sure it's because the kids are used to it too.

The kid in the front seat is not in front of an air bag according to my source.

I just thought everyone might find it interesting to see someone else's seats I don't have all the answers but I know that they're just as safe as our seats (or better, some European standards are tougher then US)

A chest clip is designed to BREAK in most crashes and by then you don't need it. I don't really know the physics of it but I belong to a board of mostly CPSTs and it is allowed and SAFE It's all what we're used to. The Swede I got it from thinks the chest clips on our seats are funny looking and not needed. He also thinks it's nuts that we Forward face our kids at only 1 year and 20 lbs since that's not even legal there.

melizerd 09-22-2007 11:48 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elaine
It's obviously just because it's not what I'm used to seeing but it seems awkward to me... and their feet sure look uncomfortable.
Here are US (canadian and NZ) kids RFing longer then the "norm" NO reports of broken legs in an accident because of it, and the neck and head safety outweigh that for me even if it happened. I'd rather have a broken leg(s) then a broken neck for Gabe. He'll be RFing as long as there is a US seat that will fit him.

http://www.childrestraintsafety.com/...g-gallery.html
This one has more kids in it
http://www.freewebs.com/sacredjourne...rearfacing.htm

Goodness I can't spell today!

Dawn 09-23-2007 04:01 PM

What I found interesting (and I'm not in any way trying to stir up a debate with you ) is that in the 2nd link, not one of those children was over 35 lbs. As a matter of fact, several of them were 5 years old and only 32 lbs. WOW!

My kids were all 30+ lbs by the age of 2! Heck .. TJ is 5 now .. tall and skinny. He still weighs 55 lbs! I wonder if that has any bearing on their ability to be rear facing that long? I just found that very odd!

melizerd 09-23-2007 04:48 PM

Well in the second link I posted on this page that's the most you can RF for. No US seats go RFing for more then that. So in the US bigger kids then that can NOT RF in ANY seat.

They are on the smallish side for their ages for some of them, but if ya can make it to 2 years old and 30 lbs you've done an awesome job RFing.

ETA: lots of people have petite kids though so they can RF longer then bigger young kids. Those kids that RF to 35lbs did it as long as they could and that's the important part. Until the US has seats that RF to 50lbs like Sweden 35 lbs is all we can try and make it too, some kids don't even make it that far because of torso height too.

Shona 09-24-2007 11:09 AM

lol maybe it's just me but I can see this (RFing) becoming like everything else.

Ex:

I am a BFing, Cloth diapering, homeschooling, child wearing, RFing Mother!

Not that it's bad by any means, I don't mean to insult, just struck me as funny.
though to be honest, I've not yet had my first glass of diet coke.

Maryland 09-24-2007 12:46 PM

Call me duh but I don't see the difference in how the older kids are sitting as opposed to how they sit here in the US, other than they are rear facing. What makes it so much safer if they are sitting up and buckled just like our kids are?

I personally agree that younger kids should be rear facing as long as possible and I do keep mine that way way past the age of one, but once they are older and have more head control and more body control overall, what's the difference in them facing forwards or backwards? Help me understand!

Oh, and I do think those car seats look fine without the chest clips - the straps seem to look sturdier and look like they hold the kids in tighter.

melizerd 09-24-2007 01:48 PM

RFing for anyone is safer then FFing, even technically for an adult. Also keeping them RFing until they're 4 or 5 guarantees that their bones are occified well enough to withstand a crash while FFing.

It's MOST important for children under 2 though, since a FFing child under 2 is 4 times more likely to suffer from internal decapitation and other neck and head injuries.

There's a few videos in This thread with videos of RFing vs FFing.

ETA: and then once they are too big to RF keeping them harnessed as long as possible also helps reduce injuries.

Maryland 09-24-2007 02:07 PM

But why is it safer? That's what I don't understand. If they're sitting in the same position both ways, why is RF safer? I can see for the younger ones but once they are around two and older, why is it safer?

I absolutely agree that keeping them in a harness is safest. My kids have stayed in them until at least 5 (aruging with my 4 1/2 now because she wants to be in a booster like her 7 yr old brother).

melizerd 09-24-2007 02:21 PM

RFing is safer because MOST collisions are head on or Side impact so the way that the body rotates and the physics of the crash force push the child INTO the seat and not AWAY from the seat if they were FFing which would stretch they're neck as the head flies forward.

Maryland 09-24-2007 02:27 PM

Makes sense! Thanks for explaining it to me.

melizerd 09-24-2007 02:30 PM

No problem

melizerd 09-24-2007 09:35 PM

yes it's slightly less safe in a rear end collision but they occur less often and at lower speeds, statistically. It makes equivalent to being FFing in a front collision.

A roll over accident is affected by them only if you have a seat that allows tethering RFing which helps with the head excursion (only 2 brands allow that right now) so that's a benefit of them. the tethering also helps in a side impact.

Why would the type of vehicle effect physics of a crash? I mean some cars are more likely to roll over in an accident and that would be the only bearing on it.

eta:Gabe likes to type ;p

melizerd 09-24-2007 09:49 PM

There are actually THREE collisions in any crash:

1. your vehicle strikes another object, causing it to abruptly lose velocity
2. your body strikes the interior of your vehicle, whether that be your seatbelt or the windshield
3. your internal organs strike your skeleton: brain impacts your skull; lungs, heart ect hit your ribs



It's not the crash that kills you - it's the sudden stop at the end.

Which is why RFing is safer in a front end collision causes the body of the child to be pushed back into the seat and stay cradled instead of flying forward away from the seat.

tailwaggers 09-25-2007 09:21 AM

Quote:
You don't need a chest clip? IMO that's crazy even if Britax says it's ok. My 17 month old would be out of his Britax in about 2 minutes if it didn't have a chest clip. What keeps the child from flying out from between the straps in a collision? Not to mention if the child is like mine--tall and thin and very active. He'd slip the staps off his shoulders and be out no matter how tight I made them.

The fact that Sweden has 1 child fatality per year is great but not a fair comparison with US statistics. I don't know for sure but I've got to guess that the US has more cars on the road, more children in cars, more people travelling longer distances by car, etc. Not to mention that the US has a ton of cheap, poorly made booster type seats on the market which people buy and use not knowing any better.

The pics of the kids without the chest clips makes me cringe. It just looks so unsafe. Especially with the children being so tall. It seems like their whole upper body is essentially unrestained with the exception of their shoulders (which are quite narrow in children).
I agree, Abby.
I also agree that having children harnessed as long as possible is best. I am fighting this battle with MIL and my husband right now. They are (I guess) tired of dealing with/purchasing car seats, so they want to put Emily in a booster. MIL bought a backless booster, which I have since told her we will not be using for the foreseeable future. Then, she got a hand me down booster with a back from Kyle's cousin. I am not happy about that, and have told her we aren't using it yet.
Kyle and his mom want Emily in a booster seat so that Travis can sit in the car seats they already have (the ones Emily has been using). She is outgrowing these, and they convert to booster seats, but I want to buy a seat with a harness that will accomodate Emily. I am not sure if the car seats Emily has been using are the best for Travis anyway, and I don't know how to make them understand this. It's frustrating because I think they think I am paranoid and always expecting bad things to happen, when I just really want to protect my kids.
Anyway, we'll see. I just know that she is NOT going in a booster yet, even if I have to hide or get rid of the two boosters that we have.

melizerd 09-25-2007 09:34 AM

It's really just because we're not used to it. It's really just as safe as having a chest clip and most chest clips break in an accident (which is okay). Even with a chest clip all the force is on a child's shoulders.

tailwaggers 09-25-2007 09:43 AM

It may be just as safe, but the other issue is that some kids can get between the straps. We are talking about normal, daily driving in the car. Emily and Travis both would get their arms out from underneath the straps if I didn't have a chest clip.
Also, I see what Liz is saying about the type of car. Some cars are safer in crashes than others.
Also, how many injuries/fatalities here in the U.S. are caused by improper installation or use of the car seats? For example, MIL goes to see her other grandkids, and one is 18 months old and weighs less than Travis, but she rides in Emily's car seat, with no adjustments being made to the straps. Emily weighs over 40 pounds and is a foot (at least) taller than this child. If MIL had a wreck, it's very likely that J. would be hurt simply because she's not properly restrained. I can see how rear facing is safest. However, here in the U.S., sloppy/careless restraining is often the problem, too.
It's not MIL's fault, by the way, that this happens. J.'s mom tells MIL it's okay to do this, and I have said it's not.

Elaine 09-25-2007 10:07 AM

Here in the US, parents really aren't properly informed or educated about child restraints and a big part of the problem I think is that each state has different laws. Even here on the boards when we ask for advice on carseats, we get 10 different answers because no one has heard the same advice or read the same laws. If laws were standard in our country instead of state by state than it would be so much easier to inform everyone and educated them on the proper way to use carseats and restraints.

melizerd 09-25-2007 10:14 AM

Well if you want advice straight from techs I can give you the board I go to. You'll get the same answer 9 times out of 10 there because we all want the same thing

80% of all seats are installed improperly. In a properly installed seat with the harness as tight as it should properly be those kids can't get their arms out without a LOT of trying, and since they're all used to it they're parents have taught them from the get go that it's a no no.

I'm working with a group of ladies to get a NATIONAL carseat standard as well.

Information is difficult to come by and that's part of the problem. It's part of what we're trying to change. I'm trying to get into a class to become a CPST but in Wisconsin it's going to cost me $245 to take a class for a volunteer position. I'm going to try and work with a car dealership to help with the cost that I'd then volunteer at to do car seat checks.

I can honestly say that I can install 90% of carseats properly now even over the internet I can help with the problems. I KNOW that I know more then 75% of the parents I've already talked to about car seats. It SHOULDN'T be that hard to install your kids' seats properly.

melizerd 09-25-2007 10:18 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by tailwaggers
Also, I see what Liz is saying about the type of car. Some cars are safer in crashes than others.
That has nothing to do with the carseat though. That's the car's crash test. Putting your kid in a properly installed carseat in a car with a better crash test rating is obviously safer then in a properly installed seat in a car with poor crash test rating.

That's not a carseat issue so I'm not sure what it has to do with this thread. Which was just supposed to be entertaining

If anyone has specific car seat questions I'm ALWAYS happy to help with finding the information and getting a tech in your area (I had a problem finding one for Abby though since CT is small ;p)

Hopefully in 6 months I'll be fully certified (crosses fingers)
EVERYONE should have their seat checked by a tech, the tech should teach you how to install your seat and have you do it as well.
Seat check To find a tech in your area.

tailwaggers 09-25-2007 01:47 PM

Yes, the thread is about car seats, but you were talking about injuries and deaths, and obviously, car safety, or lack thereof, contributes to those things. The point is that all injuries or deaths or lack of those can't be solely attributed to carseats. The safety of the car itself is a factor. You could have your child in a Brittax, rearfacing carseat, but if you are in a Ford Festiva and get t-boned or hit head on by a truck, it's not going to help a lot, versus being in a large size SUV with side airbags. I think that was the reason it was mentioned.
Thanks for the link for finding a tech.

tailwaggers 09-25-2007 01:50 PM

Okay, help. I don't have Exel on my computer. Can you open the file for Georgia, and copy it and pm me or email me? I would really appreciate it.

melizerd 09-25-2007 02:08 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by tailwaggers
Okay, help. I don't have Exel on my computer. Can you open the file for Georgia, and copy it and pm me or email me? I would really appreciate it.
It's done by county. Where are you?

Also try this one, Between the 2 sites We can find someone.

https://ssl13.cyzap.net/dzapps/dbzap...AFEKIDSCERTSQL
I also know a few techs there that are REALLY good so I can give you their info too if they're close to you. Especially if you have a seat that's not that common, like some of the Britax seats. I know the techs in my area had never installed one and had no idea how to do the RFing tether.

melizerd 09-25-2007 02:11 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by tailwaggers
Yes, the thread is about car seats, but you were talking about injuries and deaths, and obviously, car safety, or lack thereof, contributes to those things. The point is that all injuries or deaths or lack of those can't be solely attributed to carseats. The safety of the car itself is a factor. You could have your child in a Brittax, rearfacing carseat, but if you are in a Ford Festiva and get t-boned or hit head on by a truck, it's not going to help a lot, versus being in a large size SUV with side airbags. I think that was the reason it was mentioned.
Thanks for the link for finding a tech.
That makes sense I think we were both saying the same thing though that how the seat is installed still helps even in a badly designed car.

Festiva though.


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